Sunday, June 27, 2010
23 comments:
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Comment areas:
- North Neighborhood -- North of Canyon, West of Broadway
- Central Neighborhood -- Between Table Mesa and Canyon. West
of Broadway
- South Neighborhood -- south of Trable Mesa and west of Broadway
- East Boulder -- east of Broadway
As "West of Broadway" Neighborhood Representatives we do not represent East Boulder interests. We will, however, make your comments available to other CCG representatives who are responsible for representing your interests. We also encourage you to contact your representatives directly. (See right hand column for links.)
Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.
These are my compromise ideas.
ReplyDeleteI have also posted comments opposing mountain bike access.
Some suggestions:
1. Build bike paths along 93.
2. Permit biking only when the trails are not wet.
3. Have a designated bike day/time for the wide jeep trail on the shanahan loop - only if there is no other solution - to prevent erosion and conflict with wildlife and walkers.
Thanks for listening.
katherine Velasco
3700 Silver Plume Lane
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI am an avid hiker and less avid mountain biker. I particularly enjoy the peace and solitude that open space provides in this all-too-busy world. There are far too few places that anyone can find real solitude except for open space lands.
I believe that hiking/strolling/contemplating and mountain biking just do not mix. I would support additional mountain biking trails that are new trails built expressly for mountain biking. If mountain bikers, such as myself, have to bike a few miles on roads to reach a biking trail, that's fine. Biking is all about getting exercise!
Sincerely,
Carolyn Kohler
3575 Silver Plume Court
I hike and bike. I am a (recent) dog owner; a 23# puggle with an off leash permit.
ReplyDeleteI cannot imagine sharing the current Shanahan trail system with bikes and bikers. I believe our dog would be a severe risk; any dog would but small dogs are really at risk of their lives on vehicular-access trails.
Each activity we engage in places us in a zone unique to that activity. Biking and hiking zones are incompatible.
That said, I *do* support an east-west bike trail linking the city to Walker ranch, preferably one that doesn't bisect any Shanahan trail (altho I don't know if that's possible).
One more thing: should biking be allowed under any scenario at Shanahan I would lobby hard for a visible tag with designated mounting parameters, designed simply with ID# readable from a distance. Sorry to say, I simply do not trust bikers to honor any code of safe shared us practice.
Bart Windrum
3855 Telluride Place
Clarification: my small dog is not "a" risk but "at risk".
ReplyDeleteI live in Dakota Ridge in North Boulder. I'm not sure how much compromise mountain bikers can make, given that we have so few trails that are accessible from town. We're forced to drive all over town, north to Lyons, or south to Jeffco for trails. Having more access simply means less crowded hiking trails, and a more natural solitude experience for hikers, birders, etc.
ReplyDeleteI also posted under 'Supportive Comments'. From your list of possible compromise solutions, here are the ones I would potentially support:
ReplyDelete1. Consider plans for a trail north the urban boundary at Lehigh/Greenbrier separately from plans for a trail south of that boundary which has less difficult neighborhood impact issues.
2. Continue to prohibit mountain bike access on all of the popular hiking trails in the area by constructing new, primarily mountain bike trails.
3. Strongly encourage mountain bike visitors to bike and not drive to the already crowded trailheads.
4. Avoid sensitive habitat areas as defined by OSMP's new Highly Suitable Habitat criteria.
Thanks for your consideration!
Pieter Oosthuizen
3232 Redstone Lane
South Boulder
I live on Smuggler Circle.
ReplyDeleteI love my home.
I have spectacular views, and I use the trails 345 days a year.
My porch overlooks the proposed parking lot on Greenbriar! So, naturally I don't want to see a parking lot there! I have already encountered 2 sets of couples engaged in sex there in the field with their cars nearby Oh, and I have a 6 year-old and an eleven year-old. I don't see the need to increase their exposure at this time.
This is a residential neighborhood. Not a commercial or recreation district. In fact, there is a kindergarten right next to where you want to put a parking lot for all manner of travelers! More parking for more cars would simply increase that number of "partiers" including all the thefts we hear about at trailheads I don't think we should put one of those crime magnets next to a Kindergarten!!
I will continue to call the police when I encounter X rated activities in what is legally a G rated park, and other noisy partiers, but I really don't feel I should have to do this, and it is an unpleasant experience for everyone when the police get involved.
On the other hand, I love to hike and to Mountain Bike!
I personally would love to see a way to get to Marshall Mesa and Eldorado on a trail instead of having to drive with disrespectul auto drivers on Broadway (highway 93) and Marshall Road. I'd love to see a path right across the cow pasture/open space off Greenbriar, but we just don't need a parking lot there when the high school is so nearby and there is parking on the street!!! Why!?!?!.
Thirdly, I love to hike and to run those trails with my family. I would love to see a set of trails that don't have bikes on them. We have so many trails in that area, and so much space. Why can we not have one connection from South Boulder to Eldorado on which bikes could be allowed? They don't have to go on every trail! But there are no trails for bikers in central Boulder! that seems pretty unfair compared to the number of hiking trails we have.
In that regard, I would love to see the Mesa Trail open to bikes... and I would ALSO love to see an option (perhaps 3 days a week) in which hikers would not have to put up with the less "gentle" of my biking compatriots. Our bikes can be somewhat rough, heavy, noisy "mechanical" and are certainly more dangerous than another hiker passing by!
I'd ideally like to see a entire trail parallel to Mesa from Eldo to North Boulder!!! (and someday beyond -to Heil ranch!)
Paul Berger MD
My name is Dan Friedlander. I live in the South Neighborhood at 2945 Lafayette Drive, Boulder CO 80305. My comment on mountain bike use is that we need to continue to allow focus on using the open space as a means of giving access to our neighbors, people from throughout Boulder and the Front Range and visitors from afar, to nature. If we opened more trails to mountain biking we would help destroy this bond (I speak from experience because I have several times been almost wiped out by mountain bikers hurdling down the Dowdly Draw trails).
ReplyDeleteNote, I am both a hiker and a mountain biker myself. But I am not a dare devil mountain biker. Given the steepness/narrowness/obstacles of the trails between Shanahan Ridge and Eldorado Springs I am convinced that most of the mountain bike users would be the extreme type. This would immediately create big conflicts with hikers and bikers. It would not liberate these trails for the lets get from one place to another place over an unpaved trail type of bikers. Besides, if this was allowed I believe that the bikers would dominate and this could easily set the stage this beautiful area to become a national mountain bike meccca (like Eldorado Spring is for rock climbing). If this happens this area would become the undisputed domain of the extreme sports enthusiasts. Is this our intent?
Now there may be an alternative. Perhaps there is a way to build an entirely separate mountain bike trail systems designed to meet the needs of this group. I believe this was accomplished in part with the separate bike path at the bob o link trail on Baseline. Perhaps the devoted mountain bike groups would finance this.
Best,
Dan Friedlander
Copied from Supportive Comments:
ReplyDeleteLike some of those that have already posted, I'm somewhat confused as to why those living west of Broadway have more influence over trails in Boulder County than those living to the East. I own a home in Boulder, pay taxes in Boulder, and ride my bike in Boulder. So, I will certainly comment on an issue that concerns MTB access in Boulder.
As a frequent visitor to the MTB trails in Boulder County, I find that there are basically only 3-4 mountain trails available within riding distance of town: Betasso, Walker, Marshall/Doudy, and to a lesser extent Heil. On the other hand, there are a great number of hiking trails within close proximity to town that are not open to bikes. It seems quite simple to me that if more trails were open to bikes, there would be less congestion on the trails that are currently open to bikes.
Lastly, I believe that alternate use days are a viable solution to trail user conflict. However, any new solutions will need to have bike-only days, AND hike-only days. The discriminatory WED/SAT bike ban at Betasso is not only unfair, but it simply acts to increase congestion on the other 3 MTB trails that I mentioned previously. Please consider these comments as we seek a "compromise" solution to open more MTB trail access in South Boulder.
Sincerely,
Doug Schuler
3300 Euclid
Boulder, CO
To find reasonable compromises, it is important to understand the needs and desires of mountain bikers. Here's a short list:
ReplyDelete1) We'd like to be able to ride from our homes without the use of a car
2) We'd like to be able to connect good riding areas to one another with trails
3) We'd like to experience nature when we ride
4) We'd like a high quality recreation experience on open space lands
5) We'd like riding opportunities that can be accessed from the city center
6) We'd like several options so we aren't forced to ride the same trail over and over again
7) We'd like to feel 'welcome' on open space as part of the broader Boulder community that supports open space
With these desires in mind the Boulder MountainBike Alliance put together an advocacy packet that we felt represented reasonable and responsible access. See that packet here:
http://bma-mtb.org/getinvolved/BMA_West_TSA_Packet_Final.pdf
However, let's focus on the broader picture. Perhaps the specific desires in this packet are not the right solutions. Here are some alternatives to serve the needs and desires of mountain bikers.
1) Provide a trail connection between the city center and Betasso Preserve
2) Provide a mountain bike opportunity on land not currently heavily used such as the open space land around Sunshine Canyon
3) Manage any trails opened in the south area for the benefit of the neighbors, not as a destination riding area
4) Consider trail design options that reduce the speed differential b/w bikers and hikers
5) Consider hiker-only and biker-only days or trails to manage conflict
6) Provide a near-town loop trail further away from Shanahan on the Big Bluestem and South Boulder Trails
7) Create parallel trails that allow bikers and hikers to share an area and still be separated while minimizing the environmental impact of the trail corridor (such as the singletrack paralleling the road on Greenbelt Plateau)
Please note I am not suggesting that we need everything on this list or everything here plus everything in the advocacy packet. The idea here is to put some concrete suggestions on the table to see if some of them everyone can live with. I'm trying to find a way beyond "absolutely not" by indicating the larger desires and needs of the mountain bike community - including the many mountain bikers that live in the neighborhoods.
Thanks for your consideration, and in hopes of a meaningful dialogue on these issues.
Jason Vogel
President
Boulder MountainBike Alliance
1245 Berea
South Neighborhood
I hike, bike and run the trails in Boulder on a regular basis.
ReplyDeleteMy compromise is to build new, separate trails for mountain biking. Figure out where good biking trails can be built with the least amount of disruption to the land and wildlife.
The current system of trails in the West TSA is not designed for biking, is far too crowded to add bikes, and would only create conflict.
Anyone who hikes the Mesa Trail on weekends knows it is completely packed with hikers. Bikers would not have an enjoyable ride as they would have to keep stopping for hikers. The number of conflicts would be huge and many more staff members would need to be hired to enforce the rules on the trails.
Hiker/biker only days may work on destination trails, where people don't use the trail every day as their way of life. However, it will not work on the West TSA Trails. Many people use these trails every single day, such as after dinner walks, getting in a daily run, playing, painting, photographing, and just walking to a neighbor's house. Do we really want to tell kids they can't walk the trail to their friend's houses or play in the creek, because it's the wrong day of the week? Let's find a better solution.
Start by looking at what areas are most important to the mountain bike community and begin researching the land/wildlife impacts of building new trails in those areas.
Sarah Lee
1275 Wildwood Rd
South Boulder
We live in South Boulder.
ReplyDeleteWe believe there already has been compromises made for mountain biking. There are many trails open to mountain bikers in and around Boulder. And there are many ways to connect from Boulder to other areas via a bike.
Bill and Sudy Reynolds
3160 Galena Way
My husband and I have lived in the Table Mesa area for over 6 years. We are dog owners and use the trails near our neighborhood almost daily to walk, hike, and run with our dogs. As a West TSA neighbor and a hiker/runner, I agree with many of the concerns expressed regarding opening existing trails to mountain bikes. As a nature enthusiast I also agree with the concerns expressed regarding building new, mountain bike specific trails. That said, I am also an avid mountain biker!
ReplyDeleteI use the Marshall Mesa and S. Boulder Creek trails on a weekly basis to commute to and from work in Louisville. During the week, on a busy day I encounter maybe 4 other bikers and 4-5 other trail users total. Most days I will encounter only 1-2 other people total. These do not seem to be alarming numbers of trail users, and the peaceful, natural experience is not disturbed. However, on the weekends these trails become significantly more popular and to be honest, I avoid them. One reason I think this trail is so heavily used on the weekend is because it is the only single-track trail open to mtn bikes that is safely accessible from town. This to me is very unfortunate and I believe there are many opportunities for compromise to improve the accessibility for mountain biking. If there were more options, the mountain bike traffic would be diffused and everyone’s enjoyment would be improved.
Therefore, I would have the following suggestions:
~Build new trails only where they would be significantly beneficial for linking existing trails to easily accessible points in town. If a link to Walker Ranch could be built, Marshall Mesa riders would have another option nearby. A safer way to ride to Betasso from town would also be beneficial. I think this would have a net positive impact on the environment due to a decrease in people driving to trailheads.
~Open some of the most sustainable and least dangerous trails to mountain bikes to allow a connection to the Dowdy trails from Table Mesa. Only allow access on certain days of the week-maybe even only weekdays. I think Bluestem could be a potential candidate.
~Require a bike permit, potentially for certain areas-similar to the green tag program. Bikers could be required to pass a test about what it means to be a responsible bike rider in order to get a permit. While I think this is probably patronizing to most mountain bikers, it is a concession I for one would be willing to make. I do think there are those individuals who aren’t responsible mountain bikers who ruin the experience for everyone. This way, those individuals would either not be willing and/or able to get a permit, or have that permit revoked for poor trail etiquette.
I appreciate the work that everyone on the West TSA committee is doing and I appreciate those comments from my neighbors, whatever their opinions are. I hope that we can come to a compromise that will allow everyone to continue to enjoy the recreational experience to be found in our backyards while still improving the mountain biking opportunities.
Sincerely,
Erin Huck
2615 Table Mesa Ct.
I am in favor of the compromise idea for mountain biking, where new trails are built for mountain biking east of current hiking trails and west of Broadway. This would avoid biker/hiker conflicts and provide a much needed trail system for bike riders. I feel strongly that there is a shortage of mountain biking trails in the Boulder area and I regularly (twice/week) drive to Nederland or Lyons by myself to ride. I would be inclined to ride from town to trails in the Chautauqua area instead of driving to trails if this option was available. Ideally, I'd like to see a trail system for biking from Eldo to north Boulder (and beyond) that is parallel to hiking trails to avoid conflicts. There is a huge demand for this and hikers have so many more trail options in the area compared to bikers. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteGary Shirman, 629 Quince Circle, North Neighborhood
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI also live in the Shannahan Ridge neighborhood and I hike, trail run, and mountain bike with my two dogs. I am excited to read that Boulder is considering new trails for mountain bikes, and I think the loop system around Marshall/Doudy Draw is a great example of what we should be looking to create. I would like to make two points here.
First, I am a strong advocate of designing trails specifically for mountain bikes. When I bike, I like not worrying about pedestrians. When I hike or run, I like not worrying about bikers. It sounds like a lot of people feel similarly on this blog, and I believe the proposals are advocating something similar. I also think there are different topographic preferences. I like a steep hike, grades I'd never make on a bike.
Second, as a recreational biker, I tend to like loops, and I hear a lot of people say the same thing. While a trail parallel to the mesa sounds like a possible commute-route from south Boulder to downtown, I worry it might not be a pleasurable recreation ride. Out and backs are usually not as fun. So I recommend the committee considers the purpose of new mtn bike trails (recreation vs. commute) when planning the placement and layout.
Thanks,
Sincerely,
Adriana Bailey 3757 Telluride Cir.
I am going to frame these comments from within the neighborhoods adjacent to the Open Space on the west side of Boulder. Having a copy of the city's Bike and Pedestrian map would be useful in understanding my comments.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bouldercolorado.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8853&Itemid=2979#BIKEPED
For over 40 years I have lived north of Pearl in the old section of Boulder where streets and alleys are laid out on a grid pattern. Riding my mountain bike north on 4th Street quickly takes me directly into the system of trails north of town. Fourth Street, one of the main north/south corridors in this part of town, is heavily used by runners, bikers and parents pushing kids in strollers. People who drive in the neighborhood may use 4th Street for short distances but most auto traffic quickly diverts over to 9th Street or to Broadway. Because there is pretty good connectivity to some trail system in this area most bike users are satisfied with the status quo.
The pattern of a traditional street grid extends south to Baseline. The area to the south of Baseline has been built out with a street pattern intended to discourage auto traffic, and by default bike traffic, through the neighborhood. In order to negotiate through this part of Boulder, all traffic is funneled onto collector streets such as Table Mesa and LeHigh. These two streets do have bike lanes but their connection to any of the trail network entails riding south out of town on Highway 93 with Marshall Road as an alternate route. What I am hearing from the biking community is a request for a better way to get out of the neighborhood and into the trail system. It's a fair a request to ask the community to make remedies to a street network that serves the automobile driver much better than either bike riders or pedestrians. We are highly unlikely to use the powers of eminent domain to make connections to trails through private property. We do have ownership in common of our Open Space lands and a provision in the charter to provide for passive recreation. Let 's work together to find a suitable trail corridor to the west of our south neighborhoods. Mark McIntyre's proposal is a good start.
From past experience, I know that the mountain bike community could work with Parks and Open Space to design sustainable new trail and raise volunteers to build and maintain that new trail. Let's work together to accommodate a legitimate need, not anticipated at the time of development of our south neighborhoods, for a substantial segment of our community.
628 Maxwell Avenue
Boulder, CO
Everybody:
ReplyDeleteI have been a resident in the Shanahan Ridge area since 1999 and use the trails in the south TSA often. In my opinion, opening these trail to mountain bikes would be incompatible with the existing uses, create many conflicts, and result in a diminished experience for all users. However, I can appreciate that riders want trail access south of Boulder. Therefore, I would support the creation of a new mountain-bike-only trail across the open space south of Greenbriar, where dogs are currently excluded, to connect with the south Boulder Creek trail and road to Eldorado Canyon. I do not support the creation of parking lots on Greenbriar, which should not be necessary given the many comments by mountain bike users stating they want trails to which they can ride and avoid having to drive. While I am sure there are other proposals that are as good or better than this one, I believe it merits consideration as one that would provide mountain bike users the access they want, eliminate the need for them to ride on 93 to get south of town, and minimize conflicts between different types of users.
Sincerely,
Andrew Ogden
3827 Silver Plume Circle
Jenny Knuth
ReplyDelete2280 Stony Hill Road
Boulder CO 80305
South Neighborhood
Thoughts on Balancing Bikers and Hikers:
One of the reasons bikers prefer trails to roads is that they don’t want to compete with cars. It is simply not as relaxing to bike with cars nearby since a car can do serious harm to a cyclist.
It is the same for hikers trying to share the trail with bicycles. Simply not relaxing, absolutely more dangerous.
And it is even the same for the environment with hikers and dogs treading on sensitive species. The environment inevitably suffers.
Given a free-for-all “survival of the fittest" system with no regulations, we would easily have roads and houses all up and down the foothills. Walkers and natural communities would be driven out by the more powerful forces of economics, engines, and speed. (If you have any doubt, just look at Colorado Springs.)
I have consistently voted to support the maintenance and preservation of our open space in Boulder. I think this set aside land is a huge asset for our region and one that would disappear without political support. I see it as the duty of our government and planners to protect those assets that would otherwise be overrun by the natural course of development.
I agree that bikers should not be allowed on populous trails north of the Lehigh/Greenbriar line. Bikers and hikers do not mix and it is the job of our representatives to speak for those who would be driven out.
To respond to the call for compromise from Jason Vogel, I think that bikers using the roads to access trails south of the Lehigh/Greenbriar line is fine compromise. Bikes can share the road and then share the trail (hikers naturally tend to avoid trails with bikes anyway, so not much sharing necessary there). I also agree that efforts should be supported to encourage bicycling to trailheads. There is already a wonderful network of bike paths in the city, another demonstration of Boulder’s forward-thinking priorities. Allowing mountain bikers access to trails currently set aside for hikers, however, would be a step backwards, driving out hikers and further impacting the environment.
The current division between hikers North of Eldorado Springs Road and Mountain Biking access South of Eldorado Springs Road seems to be working well. I can imagine ways to link from Eldorado Springs to Greenbriar Blvd without affecting the hiking trails much; however, I DO NOT support mountain biking access north of Greenbriar. The potential for conflicts would seem to be tremendous.
ReplyDeleteMore significantly, I do NOT support the building of parking lots within the city limits. We work tirelessly to reduce driving miles within the city; it seems counterproductive to encourage driving/parking within the city limits.
Geoffrey Johnson
ReplyDelete3553 Smuggler Way
Wow, I was going to propose building bike paths along Hwy 93 as a compromise position, but I see that I'm not an original thinker.
My wife and I currently ride our mountain bikes on the frontage road over to Marshall to connect to the trails, but a designated path along 93 would be much more fun. Get crazy and run this dirt path all the way to Golden, then in the future when we're flush with cash, put in a designated paved bike path all the way to Golden. What I could do with unlimited resources.
Catharine Harris, 2645 Briarwood Dr., Boulder CO 80305, South Neighborhood
ReplyDeleteMany writers propose simply adding new bike trails in the west tsa area. This violates the goals of conservation and preservation that is the primary focus of the Open Space charter. New trails would cut across animal, bird, grass, and wildflower habitat. New trails would further fragment our finite open space. Making our open space a "recreational park" for mountain bikes will destroy the only quiet place of serenity that many of us have in a too busy and noisy world.
I agree with most people that oppose MTB trails in the TSA that bikes and hikers aren't compatible.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I'd like to be able to ride from the south end of town to the South Mesa Trailhead, and also (ideally) to the Marshall Mesa Trailhead.
I don't think that starting trails at Chautauqua is a very good idea. That area is already congested with hikers.
However, it should be possible to start a trail as far north as Table Mesa (if NCAR permits it).
So why not build a dedicated bike trail from Table Mesa Dr to Eldorado Dr? Avoid the Shanahan Trails and other more-popular hiking trails. You could certainly do this from Greenbriar, and probably from Table Mesa Dr.
I don't really see the need for any MTB loops, but you could probably figure out a way to have one south of town. Maybe the most efficient way would be to have a southbound trail that differs from its northbound counterpart.
Alan Bol
3390 Everett Dr
South Neighborhood
I support the use of mountain bikes on the trails being proposed for them and offer the following suggestions to reduce user conflicts.
ReplyDelete(1) Restrict bike access to the proposed trail for 2-3 days per week, much like is done at Betasso. This should reduce most of the anticipated user conflicts.
(2) Emphasize biker education at trail access points to remind bikers to yield to all other users and to stay off trails when they're muddy. Keep the 'muddy trail meter' signs up to date.
(3) Allow bike use for a specified period of time, perhaps 2 or 3 years. Have OSMP staff conduct 'before' and 'after' trail surveys to evaluate bike-related impacts and then decide whether bikes should be allowed and if so, under what conditions.
Thanks,
Gordon McCurry
1200 Albion Road
south Boulder neighborhood area